Is liberalism doomed?

[Speaker to Animals]

Bjorn, those professional urbanites you described are the product of liberalism. They *are* liberalism.

We all carry the seeds of it in our hearts. Every time you feel the urge to fuck over your coworker, cut down your neighbor's tree, cut off some guy in traffic, etc., you are exhibiting the liberal tendency to place yourself above everybody else.

On the other hand, the collectivist Marxists want to fuck over the individual for the group. Both are fucked up groups of people when you really consider it.

The reason you see people so freely transitioning between extreme collectivism and extreme individualism is that, at their core, they want to destroy civilization. They might not intellectually understand this, but that's what they are after. Issue after issue will be against human life, family, decency, social bonds, etc. If it destroys civilization they are for it. One moment they stand for collectivist principles when it comes to immigration or whatever because they know it will destroy our civilization. Then in another moment they will stand for individualist principles like encouraging sodomy or some other degenerate behavior because they know it destroys our civilization. The common denominator is one thing.

[DrYouth]

Bjorn, those professional urbanites you described are the product of liberalism. They *are* liberalism.

We all carry the seeds of it in our hearts. Every time you feel the urge to fuck over your coworker, cut down your neighbor's tree, cut off some guy in traffic, etc., you are exhibiting the liberal tendency to place yourself above everybody else.

On the other hand, the collectivist Marxists want to fuck over the individual for the group. Both are fucked up groups of people when you really consider it.

The reason you see people so freely transitioning between extreme collectivism and extreme individualism is that, at their core, they want to destroy civilization. They might not intellectually understand this, but that's what they are after. Issue after issue will be against human life, family, decency, social bonds, etc. If it destroys civilization they are for it. One moment they stand for collectivist principles when it comes to immigration or whatever because they know it will destroy our civilization. Then in another moment they will stand for individualist principles like encouraging sodomy or some other degenerate behavior because they know it destroys our civilization. The common denominator is one thing.

You are not seeing the best qualities of your opponents STA.
If you are going to have a good debate... it helps to try to understand what positive goal your opponent wants to achieve and join them on that front...
Then debate their bad ideas.
It's more productive that way...

If you assume what they want is the complete annihilation of civilization...
Your debate is bound to be unfruitful.

[Speaker to Animals]

Bjorn, those professional urbanites you described are the product of liberalism. They *are* liberalism.

We all carry the seeds of it in our hearts. Every time you feel the urge to fuck over your coworker, cut down your neighbor's tree, cut off some guy in traffic, etc., you are exhibiting the liberal tendency to place yourself above everybody else.

On the other hand, the collectivist Marxists want to fuck over the individual for the group. Both are fucked up groups of people when you really consider it.

The reason you see people so freely transitioning between extreme collectivism and extreme individualism is that, at their core, they want to destroy civilization. They might not intellectually understand this, but that's what they are after. Issue after issue will be against human life, family, decency, social bonds, etc. If it destroys civilization they are for it. One moment they stand for collectivist principles when it comes to immigration or whatever because they know it will destroy our civilization. Then in another moment they will stand for individualist principles like encouraging sodomy or some other degenerate behavior because they know it destroys our civilization. The common denominator is one thing.

You are not seeing the best qualities of your opponents STA.
If you are going to have a good debate... it helps to try to understand what positive goal your opponent wants to achieve and join them on that front...
Then debate their bad ideas.
It's more productive that way...

If you assume what they want is the complete annihilation of civilization...
Your debate is bound to be unfruitful.

It's the truth, DrY.

I am not going to lie about liberalism in order to have a "fruitful" debate with them.

[Martin Hash]

This forum is mostly Tories.

[DrYouth]

It's the truth, DrY.

So "the truth" is that liberals want the complete annihilation of civilization?

Uh...

Well having been a poster boy for bourgeois pantywaist liberalism myself...

I know for a fact that I didn't wake up every morning dreaming of the annihilation of civilization.

That being said I am increasingly woke to the fact that liberalism on it's own could take us to this endpoint...
Liberalism has a giant gaping hole in it's project.

But if you wanted to engage me in my prime by accusing me of deeply craving the annihilation of civilization in my marrow
- that would probably have been a bad place to start.

I mean if your plan is simply to gas liberals en masse and bring about a utopia free of these folks... then I guess debate is not big on your agenda...
So I guess there is that to consider.

[Speaker to Animals]

I did not claim most of them understand it as such. I claimed that the policies and laws they pursue, or lack thereof, all lead towards civilizational decline.

Most liberals try to rationalize these politics with convenient ideology, but those ideologies are often self-contradicting. The only commonality is the desire to upend the moral and philosophical foundations of our civilization.

[BjornP]

Bjorn, those professional urbanites you described are the product of liberalism. They *are* liberalism.

We all carry the seeds of it in our hearts. Every time you feel the urge to fuck over your coworker, cut down your neighbor's tree, cut off some guy in traffic, etc., you are exhibiting the liberal tendency to place yourself above everybody else.

On the other hand, the collectivist Marxists want to fuck over the individual for the group. Both are fucked up groups of people when you really consider it.

The reason you see people so freely transitioning between extreme collectivism and extreme individualism is that, at their core, they want to destroy civilization. They might not intellectually understand this, but that's what they are after. Issue after issue will be against human life, family, decency, social bonds, etc. If it destroys civilization they are for it. One moment they stand for collectivist principles when it comes to immigration or whatever because they know it will destroy our civilization. Then in another moment they will stand for individualist principles like encouraging sodomy or some other degenerate behavior because they know it destroys our civilization. The common denominator is one thing.

"Our civilization"? Dude, let's get one thing straight. You're not "Western", nor have you put any stock in anything Western for several years now. You're the closest this forum comes to Islamic fundamentalist given your views on individual liberties, women and gays. The reason you're the one that speaks the most about Western civilization is the same progressive liberals are the ones most likely to yammer on about racism: They're really talking about themselves. Don't pretend you're speaking on "our" civilization's behalf, StA. Your words over several years plant you solidly in the anti-Westerncamp.

Of course the urbanite professionals are the products of liberalism. So am I and my country, so are you and yours. Had there been no liberalism, I'd still live in an absolutist monarchy and you either in a constitional monarchy, without democracy, or possibly in an absolutist one, too... depending on how history might evolve. I'm not Nergol and I - nor most Danes - want nothing to do with your ideal society, either or fear the end of "our" civilization. I consider your values on par with Islamic fundamentalists (your views on woman, homosexuality, democracy and liberty are more or less identitical) and excatly as welcome to my civilization. You are part of Western civilization as a tick on a dog, so like Muslims who want a caliphate in Western societies, you should be free to speak , but never free to gain political power. Civilization isn't destroyed by guys humping other guys. Ask the Greeks and Romans about that if you don't believe me. Your civilization is indistinguishable from Islamic fundamentalistm in your views on women, gays, Western democracy and Western liberties. I'm sure those ISIS jihadists would love the notion that only "warriors" should get to own land, as well.

I felt that Rowenna was the panelist that best captured the current problem... Her use of the term "love" probably didn't help her... but beyond that I felt she hit the nail on the head.

Her statement later that liberals are allergic to faith, family and flag... was also apropos.

I also felt that the libertarian was the most out to lunch on the current challenges to liberalism...

He was all about doubling down on opening up the shop... and the alienation.

Yeah, that "love" thing was a bit cringey... bad choice of words to use if you want to be taken seriously in those kinds of talks, I think. Aside from one audience member remarking on her - turned out, wrong - choice to describe something as "communitarian", there wasn't really anyone taking on her position, even to challenge it. Although, the talk wasn't that long, so that could have something to do with that.

[DrYouth]

You are part of Western civilization as a tick on a dog, so like Muslims who want a caliphate in Western societies, you should be free to speak , but never free to gain political power.

I have to say that was an effective strike...

Gladiator down.

Hold...

Let's see if he can rally.

[Speaker to Animals]

LMFAO

I am not western because I don't support the very things that destroy the west. Gotcha. I'd guess he's day drinking again, but it's almost evening there now..

[Speaker to Animals]

You are part of Western civilization as a tick on a dog, so like Muslims who want a caliphate in Western societies, you should be free to speak , but never free to gain political power.

I have to say that was an effective strike...

Gladiator down.

Hold...

Let's see if he can rally.

He types that and you don't tone police him about "fruitful debate"?

LOL

I think we see two liberals playing the concerned "independent" again..