What Would Constitute a "Meager Lifestyle"?

[Speaker to Animals]

We need real solutions here. Welfare states and libertarian pipe dreams of letting people starve to death with no minimum wage won't save this ship.

I agree we need solutions. Speaking of pipe dreams, the fantasy of $15 employment for making garments in California is a rather cynical one. Too bad for the people who can't escape. They are the ones who will huffing paint in that shit-box, or out killing old ladies.

Yeah, maybe it is. But so is saying fuck minimum wage, let them live on the streets, then.

At some point, most people are going to have to come to grips with the fact that all the standard answers we have discussed and attempted in the previous century and a half will not work.

Me saying capitalism has outlived its usefulness does not mean I support communism or socialism. It's not an either-or dilemma. We need to look for options C, D, E and more.

[Fife]

I really hate the word "capitalism" in today's world. It's one of the most brutal Motte and Bailey words going nowadays.


I'm not for the bailey version of capitalism, and not even the motte version really, as far as that goes. I'm the nut who would end all government-chartered franchises and corporations, remember?

I also condemn capitalism in the way that you are using it.

[Speaker to Animals]

You should respond to Hobbes, then, because he demolished that viewpoint long before your dad's prostate got the idea of producing you.

[Fife]

Not your best salt, but meh. I oppose positive harms like outlawing labor where I find them.

[Montegriffo]

I'm not a globalist; if the Sudan doesn't want to allow our citizens to come in and make commerce with them internally, too bad so sad. I think you also know that I would end 100% of foreign aid tonight if I had the power.

Yeah, let's fuck over the developing world and make it even more unpleasant to live anywhere but the developed world, that will sort out the refugee crisis over night. I mean, who is going to want to walk out of Africa or South America when they could just stay at home and starve to death.
Once again selfish thinking makes the world a better place.......

[Speaker to Animals]

Not your best salt, but meh. I oppose positive harms like outlawing labor where I find them.

While ignoring the harm of reducing some portion of workers to abject poverty in the process. I am sure those maids cleaning your Best Western room will be pleased to know you looked out for them by abolishing minimum wage. Now they can really feed and clothe their children..

Meanwhile, I will continue explaining how all this shit doesn't work. Capitalism and socialism both suck. Your shit stinks. Just because capitalism is not intrinsically evil like socialism doesn't somehow make it the ideal.

[boethius]

The system that most holds to human dignity is distributism--where each person has control over the capital (aka instruments of production) needed to produce enough goods to survive.

Capitalism concentrates the instruments of production into the hands of a few capitalists.
Communism/ socialism concentrates the instruments of production into the hands of a few members of the government.

The problem with both is that they concentrate the instruments of production in a few hands, leaving the rest of humanity to beg (either politically through a welfare state, or through working bullshit jobs) for their daily bread.

"To control the production of wealth is to control human life itself. To refuse man the opportunity for the production of wealth is to refuse him the opportunity for life." - Belloc, The Servile State.

An ideal form of a Distributist state would be where every household had a Star Trek type replicator (and source of power for it) and could make any item they needed.

Short of that ideal form, we have to contend with the situation where the instruments of production are monopolized by small groups of capitalists and communists/socialists (depending on where you live). Capitalism can be made more distributist through a system of government policies that reward and encourage 100,000 small "factories" each owned by a household or two vs. 1 large factory where 100,000 households must beg for work or be destitute. In general, most gov't regulations discourage small production and favor large enterprises.

[Fife]

Not your best salt, but meh. I oppose positive harms like outlawing labor where I find them.

While ignoring the harm of reducing some portion of workers to abject poverty in the process. I am sure those maids cleaning your Best Western room will be pleased to know you looked out for them by abolishing minimum wage. Now they can really feed and clothe their children..

Meanwhile, I will continue explaining how all this shit doesn't work. Capitalism and socialism both suck. Your shit stinks. Just because capitalism is not intrinsically evil like socialism doesn't somehow make it the ideal.

Speaking of stinky shit,

Serious questions:

How much should the minimum wage be in California? What about in Ashville?

[Speaker to Animals]

Not your best salt, but meh. I oppose positive harms like outlawing labor where I find them.

While ignoring the harm of reducing some portion of workers to abject poverty in the process. I am sure those maids cleaning your Best Western room will be pleased to know you looked out for them by abolishing minimum wage. Now they can really feed and clothe their children..

Meanwhile, I will continue explaining how all this shit doesn't work. Capitalism and socialism both suck. Your shit stinks. Just because capitalism is not intrinsically evil like socialism doesn't somehow make it the ideal.

Speaking of stinky shit,

Serious questions:

How much should the minimum wage be in California? What about in Ashville?

I reject the parameter of the question. I am not down with the economic system that underlies that question as you are, and as are the 15/hour minimum wage advocates. That's you guys. I simply want to explain why none of you have it right, and we need to seriously consider how we ought to organize our economic system going forward -- because this shit isn't leading us to a good place, man.

[Fife]

While ignoring the harm of reducing some portion of workers to abject poverty in the process. I am sure those maids cleaning your Best Western room will be pleased to know you looked out for them by abolishing minimum wage. Now they can really feed and clothe their children..

Meanwhile, I will continue explaining how all this shit doesn't work. Capitalism and socialism both suck. Your shit stinks. Just because capitalism is not intrinsically evil like socialism doesn't somehow make it the ideal.

Speaking of stinky shit,

Serious questions:

How much should the minimum wage be in California? What about in Ashville?

I reject the parameter of the question. I am not down with the economic system that underlies that question as you are, and as are the 15/hour minimum wage advocates. That's you guys. I simply want to explain why none of you have it right, and we need to seriously consider how we ought to organize our economic system going forward -- because this shit isn't leading us to a good place, man.

OK, so explain, just a little. No wages? You're cussing at both the free market for wages, and the "15/hour minimum wage advocates." What are the parameters of a non-wage based labor economy? I honestly want to discuss it.