Marxism

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Fife
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Re: Marxism

Post by Fife » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:20 pm

Peace pipe time:

I will consent to the proposition that the state should provide and administer public goods.

Will you consent to the proposition that the state should stay out of everything else?

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DrYouth
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Re: Marxism

Post by DrYouth » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:57 pm

Fife wrote:Peace pipe time:

I will consent to the proposition that the state should provide and administer public goods.

Will you consent to the proposition that the state should stay out of everything else?
I also believe that the state has a role to play in holding powerful private entities accountable.
For example enforcing limits on pollution of the commons, and protecting citizens from unaccountable monopolies.
The state should limit the influence powerful private entities have in controlling legislature and government policy... by limiting lobbyists access to the state itself.
Deep down tho, I still thirst to kill you and eat you. Ultra Chimp can't help it.. - Smitty

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Martin Hash
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Re: Marxism

Post by Martin Hash » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:13 pm

I agree.

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Re: Marxism

Post by Fife » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:39 pm

Monopolies only survive with the backing and support of the state.

Corruption in the state is nonsensical without the support of the state.

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Re: Marxism

Post by DrYouth » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:45 pm

Speaker to Animals wrote:You are tossing out non sequitur here. We are talking about the marxists who now dominate most of the left in the western world. Fascists no longer control much of anything at all.
It is as hyperbolic to call the left Marxists as a whole as is to call the right Fascists... although it doesn't stop the hyperbolic left from doing so.

Neither thing is true... and if you want honest debate it is best to avoid hyperbole.

That being said ridiculing SJW hyperbole is by all means fair game... I enjoy it as much as you do... there is so much of it in my world after all.
Deep down tho, I still thirst to kill you and eat you. Ultra Chimp can't help it.. - Smitty

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Re: Marxism

Post by Speaker to Animals » Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:51 pm

DrYouth wrote:
Speaker to Animals wrote:You are tossing out non sequitur here. We are talking about the marxists who now dominate most of the left in the western world. Fascists no longer control much of anything at all.
It is as hyperbolic to call the left Marxists as a whole as is to call the right Fascists... although it doesn't stop the hyperbolic left from doing so.

Neither thing is true... and if you want honest debate it is best to avoid hyperbole.

That being said ridiculing SJW hyperbole is by all means fair game... I enjoy it as much as you do... there is so much of it in my world after all.

I didn't call them all marxists. Hash is left and sure as shit ain't no marxist.

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Re: Marxism

Post by Speaker to Animals » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:09 am

A simple way to think about it..

Marxists all look at things in terms of group identities rather than principles and morals. Justice is not justice, but a group justice. The marxist seeks "justice" for a group they decided are systemically wronged by a dominant group. Another way of saying group justice is social justice. Social justice is a scam, that while it sounds good superficially, is fundamentally an evil. To apply "group justice" means to inflict injustice; that is, in order to punish a group of people based on some characteristic identity, you necessarily inflict harm upon innocent people.

Normal people who live life according to morals and principles see justice as giving to individuals what they are owed, whether that is punishment, reward, or renumeration.

Marxists, having lost grasp of morals, can only see the world in terms of their class conflicts. Thus what harms a member of the "oppressor class", however one wishes to define that class, does not necessarily constitute an immoral act. This is why you saw marxists on the left waiving their hands around the kidnap and torture of a white man in Chicago by four black people. They will play lip service to people horrified by the act, saying things like "of course this was a terrible act, BUT..".

This is why, when confronted with the statistics and individual stories of men having their children stolen from them by bigoted family court systems, feminists often laugh. In one recent thread, a woman justified the current system because of vague "conditions" of marriage in the past, as if the fathers and children today have anything to do with such matters. That's marxism creeping into our culture. You can rationalize all sorts of destructive, wicked, and even murderous acts and policies when you decide group justice is itself a legitimate concept. You guys might not want to admit to yourselves that you have adopted marxism in its various forms, but that's still what it is, and even if you want to call it something else, the argument against it remains. You can't make it invisible by renaming it.

To put all the various forms of marxism under a single rubric, marxists invented the concept of intersectionality. Intersectionality is the overarching framework of all the various marxist divisions. Feminism divides the oppressed and oppressor classes according to sex. Race hustlers divide the oppressed and oppressor classes according to race. We have similar systems according to disability, sex identity, and God knows whatever else these people have invented. All of them are unified by intersectionality.

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Re: Marxism

Post by DrYouth » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:47 am

You are simply using Marxism and SJW values as interchangeable.

Yes Marxism saw the workers as oppressed by the owners of capital...
But the entire Marxist construct was about state ownership of the means of production as the solution to this.
Empowerment of the working class and dispossession of the owners of capital.

To go on to call every SJW that sees victims and oppressors everywhere "Marxist" is simply confusing.

The Revolution/Counter revolution between enfranchised and disenfranchised is as old as humanity. The slaves become the masters... The oppressed the oppressors. It's a story told over again and occasionally it actually plays out in real life.

The SJW movement is probably newer... it is in some way an outgrowth of Christianity itself that speaks on behalf of "victims" (the poor, the lepers, the prostitutes) that are not of our own culture and welcomes them in as long as they sign on to the belief system. Saving their souls sometimes against their own will.
Last edited by DrYouth on Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Marxism

Post by Speaker to Animals » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:49 am

DrYouth wrote:You are simply using Marxism and SJW values as interchangeable.

Yes Marxism saw the workers as oppressed by the owners of capital...
But the entire Marxist construct was about state ownership of the means of production as the solution to this.
Empowerment of the working class and dispossession of the owners of capital.

To go on to call every SJW that sees victims and oppressors everywhere "Marxist" is simply confusing.

The Revolution/Counter revolution between enfranchised and disenfranchised is as old as humanity.

The SJW movement is probably newer... it is in some way an outgrowth of Christianity itself that speaks on behalf of "victims" (the poor, the lepers, the prostitutes) that are not of our own culture and welcomes them in as long as they sign on to the belief system. Saving their souls sometimes against their own will.
Because "social justice" comes from marxism. It was invented by marxists. It is run by marxists. The academics who run it are marxist. The rioters who sustain it on the street are marxist groups like antifa.

It's marxism.

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Re: Marxism

Post by DrYouth » Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:51 am

Speaker to Animals wrote:
DrYouth wrote:You are simply using Marxism and SJW values as interchangeable.

Yes Marxism saw the workers as oppressed by the owners of capital...
But the entire Marxist construct was about state ownership of the means of production as the solution to this.
Empowerment of the working class and dispossession of the owners of capital.

To go on to call every SJW that sees victims and oppressors everywhere "Marxist" is simply confusing.

The Revolution/Counter revolution between enfranchised and disenfranchised is as old as humanity.

The SJW movement is probably newer... it is in some way an outgrowth of Christianity itself that speaks on behalf of "victims" (the poor, the lepers, the prostitutes) that are not of our own culture and welcomes them in as long as they sign on to the belief system. Saving their souls sometimes against their own will.
Because "social justice" comes from marxism. It was invented by marxists. It is run by marxists. The academics who run it are marxist. The rioters who sustain it on the street are marxist groups like antifa.

It's marxism.
Christianity came before Marxism... "Marxism" as you call it, is a secular interpretation of Christianity... Save the souls of the lepers and the dispossessed... turn the son against the father. It turns the values of Christianity (antiauthority) against the edifice of Christianity itself. The meme is out of control, the genie that Christ himself unleashed run rampant. First the Christians rebelled against the Jewish authority, then the Roman authority, then the Protestants against the Roman Catholic authority, then the Marxists against the owners of capital and all religious authority... Always on the side of perceived victims always against the perceived oppressors.
Last edited by DrYouth on Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
Deep down tho, I still thirst to kill you and eat you. Ultra Chimp can't help it.. - Smitty