What Are Liberal Values?

[Martin Hash]

Taking this from another angle:

You (Conservative) view taxation as something ideological - that there's something "fair" about taxes and the fairness is tied to liberty in some way. The Left (Progressives/Marxists) also have a "fairness" view of taxation but I doubt you'll find any common ground with them since they prescribe "from those, to those until equal" on some kind of moral grounds. In fact, The Left finds The Constitution's focus on liberty (individual rights first) odious.

I (Liberal) see taxation only as economics and accounting. Keynesianism, with all its weaknesses, is the economic model, and arguing otherwise indicates either of lack of knowledge in the area or willful ignorance so I don't debate it. From my pov (perhaps colored by my engineering background), misrepresenting a problem or discussing options that won't fix it is an exercise in futility.

Maybe this line of reasoning can lead to productive debate?

[Stephen mosier]

Yes, I think we can have a productive discussion (am not sure if we need to think of it as a debate)along those lines. However, FYI, I will be on the road for the next 7 or 8 days and my internet access will be hit and miss so there may be long pauses between my comments here. I wanted you to know that so that you would think I had lost interest.

In the meantime, if you would like to be thinking about it, I would be interested in knowing why you think conservatives think fairness is tied to liberty. That is not at all what I think and look forward to discussing our different takes on that pov when I next have the time.

Later, Martin
SWM

[Martin Hash]

The Conservative's view of taxation often centers on whether a private individual can spend money better than Government which is where I get the liberty connection. (BTW, that position shows a complete misunderstanding of accounting fundamentals since one instance is a credit and the other is a debit.) The "fairness" part of the Conservative (and Lefty) argument is often cast in a social context with no regard of the fact that "fairness" is not mathematical.

If you'll reread my "stimulus," "trade deficit," and "loan repayment" positions, you'll see that I'm consistent in my desire to make the numbers add up. If the totals don't equate then hyperinflation is in our future. This will be a de facto transfer of wealth from those who loan money to those who borrow it, which is roughly a rich-to-poor redistribution. From my pov, this is a correction in the proper direction but not one I look forward to experiencing.