Abortion

[Martin Hash]

I argue abortion from a liberty perspective. "Give me liberty or give me death," as accepted by Americans, gives liberty precedence over life, and your liberty is only constrained by other people's liberty, plus since liberty is "being responsible for your own actions" and we don't say that's possible until after 18 (21 for alcohol), younger than that has lesser liberty. Putting these 3 facts through the computer results in: a woman's liberty supersedes the problematic liberty & life of her unborn child. (But I'm a guy, I don't really get a say.)

[SuburbanFarmer]

I argue abortion from a liberty perspective. "Give me liberty or give me death," as accepted by Americans, gives liberty precedence over life, and your liberty is only constrained by other people's liberty, plus since liberty is "being responsible for your own actions" and we don't say that's possible until after 18 (21 for alcohol), younger than that has lesser liberty. Putting these 3 facts through the computer results in: a woman's liberty supersedes the problematic liberty & life of her unborn child. (But I'm a guy, I don't really get a say.)

Of course you get a say. You're human, and responsible for the kid just as much as she is.

Agree that a cluster of cells is not a human, and that human life begins at birth. Do I like the idea of abortion? Of course not, it's disgusting. But it's also very necessary. And certainly NOT a place for the state to intervene.

[Fife]

I argue abortion from a liberty perspective. "Give me liberty or give me death," as accepted by Americans, gives liberty precedence over life, and your liberty is only constrained by other people's liberty, plus since liberty is "being responsible for your own actions" and we don't say that's possible until after 18 (21 for alcohol), younger than that has lesser liberty. Putting these 3 facts through the computer results in: a woman's liberty supersedes the problematic liberty & life of her unborn child. (But I'm a guy, I don't really get a say.)

"Life" is pretty goddam cheap the way your "computer" puts it.


[N]or shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

[Speaker to Animals]

Some anti-science going on here. Human life begins at conception. The debate is over what constitutes a human person, and most of the time, baby is quite a lot more than just a "clump of cells" by the time anybody realizes she's there.

As far as when human personhood begins, we can debate that all day, but at the end of the day, every time humans got into the business of establishing a subset of human beings as *not* human persons, bad shit ensued. The morally conservative (and safe) conclusion is to assume, until proven otherwise, that all human beings are human persons. Otherwise, you are basically performing the moral equivalent of shooting your gun off in random directions with a blindfold on. You can't say you intended to murder anybody, but that's hardly the point.

[Martin Hash]

I argue abortion from a liberty perspective. "Give me liberty or give me death," as accepted by Americans, gives liberty precedence over life, and your liberty is only constrained by other people's liberty, plus since liberty is "being responsible for your own actions" and we don't say that's possible until after 18 (21 for alcohol), younger than that has lesser liberty. Putting these 3 facts through the computer results in: a woman's liberty supersedes the problematic liberty & life of her unborn child. (But I'm a guy, I don't really get a say.)

"Life" is pretty goddam cheap the way your "computer" puts it.


[N]or shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Life is cheap. Just not mine.
Liberty is being responsible for your own decisions so, by definition, children have, if anything, a subset of liberty.
Abortion IS due process of law.
Unborn babies are not a "person" as defined by The Law.

The computer never lies.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Some anti-science going on here. Human life begins at conception. The debate is over what constitutes a human person, and most of the time, baby is quite a lot more than just a "clump of cells" by the time anybody realizes she's there.

As far as when human personhood begins, we can debate that all day, but at the end of the day, every time humans got into the business of establishing a subset of human beings as *not* human persons, bad shit ensued. The morally conservative (and safe) conclusion is to assume, until proven otherwise, that all human beings are human persons. Otherwise, you are basically performing the moral equivalent of shooting your gun off in random directions with a blindfold on. You can't say you intended to murder anybody, but that's hardly the point.

Do you commit a genocide every time you shoot a few billion human cells into your palm?

Does a baby die every menstruation cycle?

"Human" is a pretty ridiculous term when using, ya know, Science to describe it. I think that the only definitive moment in which a thing becomes a person is at birth. If you choose to use the moment of DNA combination as that definition, then you should hold a burial service and mourning period for every miscarriage. Death certificates, the works.

[Kazmyr]

Do you commit a genocide every time you shoot a few billion human cells into your palm?

Does a baby die every menstruation cycle?

"Human" is a pretty ridiculous term when using, ya know, Science to describe it. I think that the only definitive moment in which a thing becomes a person is at birth. If you choose to use the moment of DNA combination as that definition, then you should hold a burial service and mourning period for every miscarriage. Death certificates, the works.

[Martin Hash]

Of course you get a say. You're human, and responsible for the kid just as much as she is.

No you're not. It's not a kid. Even when it's born, you're not responsible. At no point are you responsible. It could have been a turkey baster for all you know.

[SuburbanFarmer]

Of course you get a say. You're human, and responsible for the kid just as much as she is.

No you're not. It's not a kid. Even when it's born, you're not responsible. At no point are you responsible. It could have been a turkey baster for all you know.

So then, you'd say that fatherhood is a choice, and not an obligation? Bold stance, with a lot of implications....

[Martin Hash]

Of course you get a say. You're human, and responsible for the kid just as much as she is.

No you're not. It's not a kid. Even when it's born, you're not responsible. At no point are you responsible. It could have been a turkey baster for all you know.

So then, you'd say that fatherhood is a choice, and not an obligation? Bold stance, with a lot of implications....

Is fatherhood the same as parenthood?
Do fathers have to be male?
Are biological doners fathers?
Is there only one father?
What about stepfathers?