Liberty vs. Socialism

[Martin Hash]

The ideological problem in the U.S. is deep because we're the only Liberty Nation. Before 1992, the fall of the U.S.S.R., we didn't have many socialists, but now about half the nation is, certainly the majority of the Democratic Party. Only OWG Democrats like myself still put liberty first. Neither side has so far understood that the two ideologies, liberty vs. socialism, are incompatible. Both sides just assume the other side uses the same value system but is too stupid or greedy to understand, but really our value systems make total sense when considering the underlying ideology, liberty vs. socialism.

[Hanarchy Montanarchy]

I know you aren't going to buy it, but I am going to give it a shot anyway.

Socialism =/= the needs of the collective over the individual.

Socialism can be viewed as prioritizing the individual workers' right to the profits generated by his labor. Possibly by giving the individual worker a share in the means of production. You might not like it if you are a business owner, but it is about a conflict between rights of individuals, not prioritizing the collective over an individual.

The reason Socialism gets conflated with 'collective rights' is that your average worker does not have the same bargaining position as a capital owner, so the worker has to collaborate to increase his position.

[DrYouth]

Well put Hanarchy.
Marty likes his ideologies black/white... it makes life simpler that way.
Nuance is not his thing.

Liberty and Socialism are not diametrically opposed.

"Liberty from what?"

And "How do you define Socialism?" are outstanding questions in this polarized view.

Certain principles of socialism are there to promote security and the opportunity for collective action, which are in many ways promoters of a strong community. A strong community does not inhibit freedom.

All of this gets lost on Marty.

That being said many interations of Socialism have relied on strongmen dictators and ineffective ideological burocracies that in the end cause more problems than they solve. One must only look at Venezuela to see a case in point.

That being said there are many more examples of effective blends of democracy and socialist policy in the world to day to choose from if you care to.

Most Socialism haters don't care to.

[Martin Hash]

Only socialists say socialism is not diametrically opposed to liberty.

[DrYouth]

Only socialists say socialism is not diametrically opposed to liberty.

You see...

You're with us or you're against us.

Black and White... it's a simple and unambiguous world view... so satisfying.

[Martin Hash]

"Liberty from what?"

Did you just make "liberty" a synonym of "freedom." Don't comment on what you don't comprehend.

[C-Mag]

The ideological problem in the U.S. is deep because we're the only Liberty Nation. Before 1992, the fall of the U.S.S.R., we didn't have many socialists, but now about half the nation is, certainly the majority of the Democratic Party. Only OWG Democrats like myself still put liberty first. Neither side has so far understood that the two ideologies, liberty vs. socialism, are incompatible. Both sides just assume the other side uses the same value system but is too stupid or greedy to understand, but really our value systems make total sense when considering the underlying ideology, liberty vs. socialism.

I hadn't really put a date on when things changed, but I think 1992 works.
We definitely took our eye off the ball after Soviet Communism imploded.

[Speaker to Animals]

Equality of outcomes cannot coexist with equality before the law and, without equality before the law, some or all members of society lose liberty.

You cannot pursue equality of outcomes via state policy without in some way violating liberties.

[Martin Hash]

You have to excuse foreigners their ignorance of liberty: they've never experienced it.

[C-Mag]

I know you aren't going to buy it, but I am going to give it a shot anyway.

Socialism =/= the needs of the collective over the individual.

Socialism can be viewed as prioritizing the individual workers' right to the profits generated by his labor. Possibly by giving the individual worker a share in the means of production. You might not like it if you are a business owner, but it is about a conflict between rights of individuals, not prioritizing the collective over an individual.

The reason Socialism gets conflated with 'collective rights' is that your average worker does not have the same bargaining position as a capital owner, so the worker has to collaborate to increase his position.

Can you cite any examples ?