Minimum Wage Sucks Because

[Zlaxer]

Back to how this is related to the UBI hooey: When we subsidize consumption, and penalize production (or innovations if you prefer), guess which way the respective needles will go.

Except that AI is a game changing event that will break the model you are basing your position on. UBI would foster tons of consumption for sure - but the machines would be the slaves.....and the machines, assuming they're not strong AIs, don't care about being slaves.....

If automation comes to full fruition - the questions becomes one of resource distribution and population management. UBI, IMHO, preserves the most independence for the individual in such a system - the state doesn't get to decide how you spend your resources....its just decides what the minimum you get is. The problem is, how to keep the drive to innovate with taxation would be severe to support UBI. But if people tend to naturally create things when they have leisure time, perhaps such a system could work. Problem is - how to mitigate the problems of centralized government....

[Fife]

LMFAO


How am I singing praises for central planners?


I am pointing out that producing more isn't going to make us any happier. We passed that point probably in the 1950s. I will grant you that we could invent something that could increase your health or longevity, but that's not happiness. You could still live a long, miserable life.

I was ribbing you a bit on that UBI goofiness, probably a bit off the mark.

As to your current point, I don't mean to say that being a Luddite is like loving on central planning; I'm just saying that point is just goofy.

You have no idea what the next big thing is -- none whatsoever. Nobody does, really.

How many people were going long on the internet in the 1950s? How many people were going long on penicillin in 1918?

Back to how this is related to the UBI hooey: When we subsidize consumption, and penalize production (or innovations if you prefer), guess which way the respective needles will go.

Happiness does not mean a long life or access to the Internet. The Internet has not made people happier by itself. We were discussing happiness. The reality is that happiness has been on a decline in America since the 1950s, especially for women, though not quite so much for men since most of us find happiness in work.

Well, that wasn't what I was discussing, but I agree with your point on happiness, at least the way I define that (as a non-material concept). I don't think Jefferson meant the term the same way, exactly. But the point that Americans are less happy now than before, and that money and consumption do not provide happiness is right on. IMNSHO.

[Fife]

Back to how this is related to the UBI hooey: When we subsidize consumption, and penalize production (or innovations if you prefer), guess which way the respective needles will go.

Except that AI is a game changing event that will break the model you are basing your position on. UBI would foster tons of consumption for sure - but the machines would be the slaves.....and the machines, assuming they're not strong AIs, don't care about being slaves.....

If automation comes to full fruition - the questions becomes one of resource distribution and population management. UBI, IMHO, preserves the most independence for the individual in such a system - the state doesn't get to decide how you spend your resources....its just decides what the minimum you get is. The problem is, how to keep the drive to innovate with taxation would be severe to support UBI. But if people tend to naturally create things when they have leisure time, perhaps such a system could work. Problem is - how to mitigate the problems of centralized government....

^^^ 99.44 % pure Marxism.

Do some thinking on this, man. The end goal of human life is not leisure.

[Martin Hash]

Just to be clear, I'm not a UBI proponent: I'm a believer in Workfare with a Living Wage bottom subsidized by Income taxes. I'm calling that "Basic Income." If you work, it's a Right, if you don't, it's charity.

[Fife]

Just to be clear, I'm not a UBI proponent: I'm a believer in Workfare with a Living Wage bottom subsidized by Income taxes. I'm calling that "Basic Income." If you work, it's a Right, if you don't, it's charity.

WAYMENT. Are you calling it "charity" now?

If you mean actual, voluntary, charity, then we might be onto something. Seems though that you are just giving a different name to the same IRL theft (when you call it a "right").

[heydaralon]

Just to be clear, I'm not a UBI proponent: I'm a believer in Workfare with a Living Wage bottom subsidized by Income taxes. I'm calling that "Basic Income." If you work, it's a Right, if you don't, it's charity.

WAYMENT. Are you calling it "charity" now?

If you mean actual, voluntary, charity, then we might be onto something. Seems though that you are just giving a different name to the same IRL theft (when you call it a "right").

Are you of the opinion that the ramifications of automation are overblown?

[DBTrek]

AI is the scapegoat of the entitled and lazy.

"I'd totally get a job man, but like, all the Boomers won't retire, and like, employers don't pay enough, y'know, and like . . . don't even get me started on the coming AI apocalypse, maaaaannnnn....."

[SuburbanFarmer]

Back to how this is related to the UBI hooey: When we subsidize consumption, and penalize production (or innovations if you prefer), guess which way the respective needles will go.

Except that AI is a game changing event that will break the model you are basing your position on. UBI would foster tons of consumption for sure - but the machines would be the slaves.....and the machines, assuming they're not strong AIs, don't care about being slaves.....

If automation comes to full fruition - the questions becomes one of resource distribution and population management. UBI, IMHO, preserves the most independence for the individual in such a system - the state doesn't get to decide how you spend your resources....its just decides what the minimum you get is. The problem is, how to keep the drive to innovate with taxation would be severe to support UBI. But if people tend to naturally create things when they have leisure time, perhaps such a system could work. Problem is - how to mitigate the problems of centralized government....

We need a new term for AI that does not imply a consciousness.

As for the problem of centralized government - use AI for it. Corruption is, and has always been, the biggest problem with government of any kind.

[Zlaxer]

Back to how this is related to the UBI hooey: When we subsidize consumption, and penalize production (or innovations if you prefer), guess which way the respective needles will go.

Except that AI is a game changing event that will break the model you are basing your position on. UBI would foster tons of consumption for sure - but the machines would be the slaves.....and the machines, assuming they're not strong AIs, don't care about being slaves.....

If automation comes to full fruition - the questions becomes one of resource distribution and population management. UBI, IMHO, preserves the most independence for the individual in such a system - the state doesn't get to decide how you spend your resources....its just decides what the minimum you get is. The problem is, how to keep the drive to innovate with taxation would be severe to support UBI. But if people tend to naturally create things when they have leisure time, perhaps such a system could work. Problem is - how to mitigate the problems of centralized government....

^^^ 99.44 % pure Marxism.

Do some thinking on this, man. The end goal of human life is not leisure.

I get that its Marxism - which is why I'm Leary of it....It can (and usually does) lead to lots and lots of bad things. But you haven't proffered a convincing argument as to how proles are supposed to earn a living in the age of automation - other than unicorn shit skittles....

[heydaralon]

I don't like the idea of people being utterly dependent on the gov't for survival. That would make us a nation of black people. But what is the libertarian answer to automation? Could libertarianism remain viable if 75% of all jobs became automated? I have no idea, but my feeling is that the arab spring gives us an idea of what to expect... I think whatever arose from such a situation would be utterly hostile to liberty and personal freedom.